Interview - Interview with Mikael 5.06..m4a

Interview with Mikael 5.06..m4a

I appreciate that you care about this stuff and pay attention and try to find ways to organize and find new things and find a way to deal with things that we don't want.And what you were talking about, that you feel that it's your duty to be the one who does that.And there my feeling is that like, because you care so strongly, I mean, I don't know how to say it without it sounding rude or something, but like, that in some way, and I mean like, I don't mean to say you're doing anything wrong or whatever, I'm just like trying to...Wait, hello, hello?Is this working?Sorry.It's okay.It felt like it stopped.Mhm.Like, that it becomes your duty because you are the one who cares the most and most strongly.And like, so then like, what does it imply for me?But it is a thing, like you know, like, okay, like, just the first thing that...

But it is a thing, like you know, like, okay, like, just the first thing that comes to my mind.For example, it is a thing that, you know, the group of people, okay, I don't know like precisely, but like, the group of people who are least likely to sort trash are men in their 30s.Yeah.Uh, well of course it's a whole other discussion about like what, like, you know, recycling and whatnot, but it is a thing.For me, it's related to what I think about as autism also.Is that because for me, one of the main themes in my life is that there are these like very, very strong moral principles and things that I don't understand and I don't feel them.And I'm interested in...For example, in the book that I read to Tazi about recycling, there's like a page about when they go to an old landfill and it's like somehow it's presented as like, "Yeah, this is what they did in the past and it was horrible, very, very bad."And I'm very interested in this.I've read about landfill management, like I've spent time researching this on the internet, I've like talked to people on Twitter about it.I'm very interested in...Like, I cannot, maybe this is some self-congratulating or something, like I'm so super rational.It's not like that.Often like, it's more like the opposite, like I'm just a bit stupid, like...

...back, but I can't just agree with things if I don't understand them.And then somehow especially if I'm expected to agree even if I don't understand them, even if no one even tries to...But isn't it the thing with landfills is that like they leak and they like damage the ground?Well, that's why the modern ones have like very serious systems of these sheets that they put on like every day exactly in order to prevent those leaks.And then I feel like bringing that up is some kind of reactionary like information.But then doesn't it like affect the air and whatnot?Like, I don't know, but like...Yeah, that was also interesting about reading about the landfill thing is that like people are taking this very seriously and maybe it is very bad.Maybe it's just hard for me to know.From what I was reading about this thing it was like, "Hmm, okay, it looks fine."And then it's like, maybe it is rational and I don't know.Maybe it creates some extreme horrible biological toxins, maybe not, like I don't know.But somehow it seems that, okay, but like, but it seems that somehow...But yeah, I wanted to say also that often with these things it's like, it's not that I'm super rational or something, it's more like I just get an oppositional reaction and then it turns out, "Oh, okay, now I see you were right."But often also it's like the other person didn't even really know why they were right or something, they could not have been right or something.And things get like politicized, that's also been...

That's also been a very strong thing in my life, that like in school when people started getting like political awareness or something, I was like, "What are you talking about? I don't understand this at all.""Why are you against all of these things and the other people are for all of those things? Like, they're not even related somehow."Like, things get like... and I have some kind of strong inability to, I don't know, you know.But coming back to stuff and like taking care of getting stuff and order, like, creating an order of stuff and also getting rid of stuff in a way that's somehow...Yeah.Yeah.Well, for me, like, I will tend to think in a way that seems strange to many other people.Like, I will tend to think, "Okay, maybe we can just literally take like anything and put it in the trash and maybe that's not even so bad."But then somehow by saying that I have like violated a very strong moral norm that I don't understand to begin with.Is it because it's wasteful?Is it because it's harmful?Maybe there is a way to... yeah.Obviously it is wasteful and I can, I mean, I understand that.No, but...

No, but yeah, like I'm also very interested in like the issue of plastic waste because that's also a thing where my whole life I feel like I have been made to like automatically agree that plastic waste must be inherently very bad.And for me it's like, but I don't understand why and that makes me feel like a bit confused.But somehow this like plastic packaging is the thing that is the most like that feels...The most wasteful?Yeah, the most abandoned in a way, it cannot be reused really, it's just some substance that's just useless now.Yeah, so you just pile it up and you're like, "I think someone in the future will somehow deal with it."Yeah.I mean, I also have like a reaction to thinking about that which is like, yeah, it's obviously stupid and bad and ugly or something.But then it's also like I can't really trust those judgments that I have because for example, like in programming or something, I will have these like, "Oh, that's... no, that's really not good."But like, then I show it to someone else like, "It works fine, I don't even... what are you talking about?"And then it turns out that I have like a strong feeling about it that someone else just didn't have.

But coming back to stuff, for example in our household...Yeah....and yeah, getting stuff, making order, finding a place for stuff and getting rid of stuff.Yeah.I don't know, I don't have a particular question but...Yeah.Sometimes when I've been home alone and there's some kind of random bit of tidying, I'm just like, "Okay, in this box I will just put things that I don't care about and nobody cares about, it's just blah...""...and then I just throw it in the trash and never think about it again, nobody will notice."And it's been like that?Yeah, yeah, yeah.It's like, I mean, it's a bag full of like some kind of half-broken something that doesn't even work or like, or something that I'm just completely sure that this is just garbage.But you have a feeling that I have intended to do something with it or just keep it?No, but it's like a shameful thing that I'm doing that I shouldn't be doing and that what I should be doing is I need to take everything and think very carefully about what to do with it and then I will not figure out anything to do with it and then I'll feel super sad and......and just feel sad about everything and sit down and just be completely overwhelmed by everything.I feel quite overwhelmed by stuff and like, I don't know, the amount of stuff we have and somehow the way our, I don't know, our apartment is...Yeah....and the way our storage spaces are, although I somehow think that there is quite a bit of like control but also like...

...also like, I don't know, this stuff is everywhere and many places don't have their... many things don't have their own place and it's like going over all over.Yeah.But also I do have a feeling that it's my duty somehow that I'm the one getting a lot of stuff for our home.Like that I see the need and then I get stuff.Well you also get stuff, but I don't know, there is some kind of...Like one thing that I've told you many times is with the food that I have the feeling that because you care so strongly about it, it makes it... it has made it hard for me to get food, especially times when I have gotten something and then I've seen like some look of disappointment or some remark or something and it can feel like, okay, everything I buy is like something to be a bit like scrutinized and very carefully think about if this is good.But for example, like, I don't know.But well I mean it is true that there is a... I mean it's interesting to have this conversation for me, but like it is true for example that there are a lot of choices to be made regarding food and regarding everything.So for example, like, okay, I mean it is a question that's just been somehow raised in public awareness more recently in Italy at least, but like do you buy eggs from chicken that...

...that are like in cages.Yeah.For some...Uh, well I mean...I just take the most expensive ones and I think this is probably good.So you do care about the eggs, I suppose.I mean when I buy something, I look at the things and I try to find which one will make me not feel like an evil, horrible person.Which one can I buy with some feeling of decency?Yeah.Yeah.And somehow with eggs, it's a nice thing, there's like a label, you just choose: do I want the good ones or do I want the slightly worse ones?Like how much money do I have?Okay, I'll take the best ones.But do you have that feeling about stuff?What do you mean with "stuff"?I don't know, everything else that's not food.Well I think with some things it's the opposite, it's like if you buy something I'll be like, okay...Yeah, right?Yeah.But like, I don't know, like what, like technology and furniture?I don't know, I was thinking about furniture because I have some special...Furniture always!I wouldn't buy... I'm afraid to buy... I would... like not afraid, but like I would always ask your opinion because I wouldn't buy like...Yeah, but don't you think that I also... I don't know, how do you...Well I'm not afraid, but just I know that you have a strong opinion.Yeah.And maybe I would be afraid that you would think that some things that I like are tasteless or that they are like...Yeah.But the way you were asking about...

I don't know, I think about this.But I mean, maybe some things I would not...I mean when you get these wooden things, I think you know that they're like handmade or something.Yeah.And I can also somehow know that if I find something where it's like, maybe this is like handcrafted by someone and it is good quality, made of pure wood and it looks fine.It was nice.And I know that you also like...But sometimes I don't know why, but sometimes you would maybe feel like it's, I mean stylistically, it's not so important.I don't know.But I guess I'm not thinking about style as much as I'm thinking about some kind of moral...Yeah.And also maybe like, well yeah, moral in the sense of somehow, or aesthetic, or also a bit like, in a sense like, I don't know, stuff piling up.And I somehow have a feeling also that there is a stronger relation to like the size of our like apartment.And a bit like I want to hold against a bit like, you know, in some way I agree that it would be good to have a bigger apartment.But in some ways I have a feeling like, you know when I told Ruth about like my feelings about stuff, and she says, "Well yeah, if you get a bigger apartment..."

Well yeah, if you get a bigger place, like stuff somehow disappears.But somehow it feels a bit like, I don't know, somehow...I feel it's not exactly like a super straightforward like the more square meters, the more objects you will have, right?Or the other way around.Like constant like per square meter you have this many things.I see how it is somewhat straightforward with kitchen cabinets and that kind of thing.I feel like, yeah, then okay, now we have space for more things, so like that cupboard is just empty, what are we going to put there?But then I don't even want to have cabinets, cupboards.I want to have just single layers, single levels, so you see everything and then there is not possible to put one thing behind another thing.And I would like to have a bigger place and like less storage space kind of, or something like that.Or like more spaciousness, like...But then there is sometimes the garden, what do you say?I feel like one aspect of this is something like...

Eh...I... it's not that I...Like I... I would want to emphasize that it's not that I...Usually it's not that I disagree or have like opposite values.And I think that is some kind of reactionary thing where people end up being like "I love my car, I love this and that"...You know, like making it into a stupid thing, just like wanting to be as stupid as possible.But I think for me it's more about like...And with food for example...And I've heard my mom talk about this a lot...That like food is already confusing and difficult and something you need every day.And like my mom just won't eat like very many things.And she can find something that is like "oh yeah, I really like this thing".It is appealing to me, I want to eat it, I don't feel...But those things might not be like good in the sense of...So with there might be plastic packaging...And so there is like always a tradeoff of like...You know, there's...

You know, there's always like how much mental energy or how much capacity for research or...Yeah.It's somehow like you have a lot of capacity for research, but it's not the domain that you're...Well, I have capacity for research into things that I'm obsessed about.Yeah.So it's not the domain that you're obsessed with or that you're interested in.Well, I was very obsessed about like high-quality furniture and housing and materials in many ways.And like, yeah, no, I think I do enjoy... I can enjoy it, but I can also be extremely frustrated by trying to research like on a website catalogs, for example.I can be like violently frustrated where I want to like smash my computer and the website is stupid.Or when I have the feeling that these are just like 5,000 different brands and I don't understand any objective information about these things and I just have to like... yeah.I don't know, with food I think it's very interesting.Like I have also been very interested in food and cooking and like when we go to my grandma's, I somehow suddenly feel like "Oh wow, we need to get like all kinds of organic vegetables, mushrooms, we need to look through these recipes and like make a very nice dinner."Please can I cook today, please?You cooked the last five, can I cook now please, please, please?And then when I get home, I just feel like...

...on the larger component, but I can't even think about it anymore.But what about stuff?I love my knife.I like... I kind of like our frying pan, but there's also like some different companies.Like bird frying pan, the lightest frying pan.Remember like I spent several days trying to... holy shit, get rid of this messed up coating thing and try to learn how to apply this coating with oil and stuff, but it's so confusing and it makes like too much smoke to do it indoors.And now maybe I can do it in Cologne somehow with the open flame.But yeah, I think somehow it points to some kind of like... that for me, like taking something seriously is like a dangerous thing because I can either not take it seriously or I can take it extremely seriously.And if I take it extremely seriously, then it's a huge problem.Like with furniture, it's a bit of a problem.Like I can't buy anything and whenever I see like... I always have to... okay, it would be better if I didn't care or I just learned to care in a different way.

...and be more adaptive in a way, but there's some kind of like risk of care.Yeah.And it's also like, it's one of my worst feelings is like the feeling of caring and researching and really trying for a long time, for hours, and then still feeling bad about everything.But it's also a bit like, you know, it's... but like what does this caring entail?Like, you know, 'cause somehow a big part of it is aesthetic, I think.Yeah, which I have an extremely strong...Yeah, 'cause it's not like... I don't know, well for me like part of it is like some kind of like sustainability or something, or like, yeah, the morality of...But that also blends together with the aesthetic, I think, very strongly.Yeah.And then I'm thinking also about how it blends with like class and some kind of distinction and how much that is part of it.Yeah.So the thing like, the optimism of finding things that are good but not good because they are extremely expensive and fancy.Yeah.Or also like, things can be... and that's also class, things can be like... like the menswear guy on Twitter.

...on Twitter, he's like very cool, interesting, because he's like...He's like, yeah, discussed a lot, yeah.And he has a lot of disgust.Mhm.Yeah, but he's like, not a snob, and he always talks about how like, yeah, look at this like streetwear, look at this like casual.I don't say things are good just because they are high class.And it's more like, if you're going to wear a suit in order to look like a rich, powerful person, you should make it actually look good as a base.But also like, getting... like I've had to get some suits in my life, and I've never felt particularly good about it.Like if I have to go, if I need to get a suit, I don't have time to learn about suits.I don't know how to do that.And like, and like I can't, I don't want to spend like huge amounts of money when I don't even know, maybe I'm just buying something stupid that costs a lot of money, but then I don't care about it.And it's like, his ideal would be something like, yeah, you have to just have a budget.It's like getting a car, it's like getting anything.And like you should take it somewhat seriously if you need to take it seriously, and like find some real person, like a tailor, who can do it.But then there's all kinds of complicated things where it's like, yeah, you can find these like...

...not the most expensive tailors, and then you need to meet them three times to do like the three different fittings.And they will like go, they travel around to the major cities with some kind of intervals.So like if I first meet him in January, like I'm not going to be able to plan this ever in my life.I won't be able to like procrastinate until the last day and then go to Suit Supply and like, okay, fine, I'm going to take this.But I would really like to have a truly high-quality clothes and...This is the only like really nice thing...I've had a few clothes that I've loved, there's always some element where they've had a very distinct feeling of, "Oh my god, what is this?"Mhm.And some things I have really liked, like in the open-air market, I went there and there was like a woman who made clothes from linen.And she was like, "Oh," somehow in a funny way like looking at me.And I tried things and like, "Hey, this is really cool, it's amazing, it's made of linen, it has some nice buttons that are a bit too big because that's cool."And like, yeah, this is really nice, but then it broke immediately in some places.That was last year?No, I think two years ago.Yeah.

But what about disposing of stuff?Yeah, I don't know, like in those...Sometimes I feel that there are serious, proper, correct, like these recycling stations where there's like, yeah, that's for these things, like in the local recycling thing where my mom was working or something for some time.She became the chairwoman of the recycling station because she was so, like, she's so obsessive when she decided to get rid of stuff and then she made this whole thing of like Facebook posts every day of getting rid of five things and becoming the chairwoman of the recycling station because she was there all the time.But how did she get rid of things?I forget.I don't know, I think it could be in those, but like it was some kind of practice of every day choosing one thing.Yeah, I remember, but like...I think the recycling station bit might be also...The recycling station, the recycling station is like the resource center where you bring things and others can take it or get it, or maybe it's like they sell it?Yeah, it's some kind of system of, I mean, it's some kind of municipal thing...Municipal, yeah....and it's like, I have the impression it's like, okay, put the things here, we make it very nice, you can...

...trade the things a bit, but you need to like talk to someone and then you can have it.It's not that free for all.But it also is like part of the, like the things that stay there for too long or something get recycled or...But then I also have some kind of paranoia about recycling that's like......when I do it properly, actually I'm just somehow......there's an appearance of it being proper, but actually it's more like I get to feel good about it and then someone who works there just has to like get rid of it somehow.I don't really know, but I think that's one kind of...Because you are doubting whether...I mean with plastic recycling for example, it's most of those things.But that's somehow different than, for example, than like this stuff that other people could still use.Yeah, but I mean I think that like the thing where you can, where it's, people, other people can take it, I think that's like a somewhat minor part of it where it's like, oh this toaster I have, but a lot of things is just like this is broken, but like put it in the proper place and we will take care of it, but then like I don't know, just because I put it in the right place doesn't mean that something decent happened to it.But I also have to somehow trust that, I mean, at least this means that they have a look at it and sort the things and make sure that it doesn't like just get dumped in the ocean or something.Yeah.

It is, like, it is interesting to read these, like, children's books about, like, recycling and stuff because, I don't know, somehow it's interesting that, like, for kids it's like...And I feel a bit like I'm like, "Oh yes, tell me about how it works."I have no idea how it works, like, I've learned this much, like, I don't know anything about recycling and about how natural gas is made.There's a cool thing in that book where it's like, "Hey, like, our neighbor is working in the garbage, maybe you want to come along tomorrow?"I was listening to this podcast about plastic for a while.It's one of the few things that I listen to while Alex was little and I was walking around.And it was also that plastic emits methane when in sunlight.So that's also a big problem.Yeah, but why the landfills did this somewhere anyway?They cover everything with some UV-blocking layers.I read a book about the, about this, like, yeah.Yeah, and somehow also because it's a, because it is a company, they don't really, like...

You know, they're interested in somehow, okay, complying to the minimum without, like, you know...They're interested in, like, using the least amount of resources for some kind of risk aversion.Yeah, and they might not have the resources to, like, to take away the stuff.Yeah.I don't know what was the landfill, sometimes I read about it, it was so US thing, because somehow some kind of control about that on landfill.An article about a landfill?No, but I don't remember what it was, but it was not like some of those stupid things.Yeah.But it obviously doesn't mean all landfills are now top-notch and super good and natural, like...Yeah, what do you think about stuff I get on Amazon and somehow that I keep getting stuff from Amazon?I don't know, what do you think about it?Amazon in general?Yeah.

It's mostly clothes for kids and for here and sometimes for me and also some......some toys, some... but there are also some things there which are not like just used but more like Etsy kind of thing, I don't know.Hmm, rarely, but yeah.But like these...Which ones?I got them from some people that were throwing them away.Ah, they were free? They're new.Yeah, they were.I like the colors of those pants, it's like pigment, this paint and stuff.Hmm, me too, I do.Yeah, I don't know, I have a feeling I'm a bit like, you know, very vague in what is it that I'm trying to like somehow formulate or explore.But I have a feeling that it is there still, like that it is like tangible.Yeah.And I don't know, maybe it's a bit boring, but somehow like the gendered like expression of it.It's not boring.It might be sometimes frustrating.But yeah, I don't know.

But yeah, I don't know.I wonder then if I should...You know, I'm thinking, okay, for me, Bri- what is like a place from which I can take somewhat guilt-free and give away guilt-free, or it depends.Yeah, it's like, I mean, you don't put like garbage there, you put things that you can imagine someone would be like, "Oh, cool, I can use this".Yeah.And they can be things that are... I mean, by garbage I mean you don't put something that is just completely broken or like... but it can be something like... something that is like... possibly ugly, something you would never want, but you can imagine for someone like, "Oh, my kids can have this" or something like that.Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.And then somehow it becomes a useful thing for us that there is somewhere for whom such a thing can just be like, "Oh, nice, cool, this is for free".Yeah.And it's no more harmful to...I don't know, maybe.But yeah, but I wonder then what is it that I'm researching in Bri- and with people who go there to get stuff, how to select...Yeah, I don't know, this is like research methodology or something that just means like, "I went to this place for like a while and..."Yeah, right.

Yeah, and then you come up with something or like...Yeah, and this is the most confusing thing because like you're supposed to have gotten a lot of data but like, you know, like when I go to Bri- it's not necessarily that I talk to a lot of people, you know?So I need- so now when I start talking to people I actually need to ask them things, you know?Mm-hmm.You need to ask them like why they are there and...What happened?I'll be interviewing tomorrow this woman who's very kind and very... but she's there all the time somehow.Mm-hmm.And she like comes and goes with like huge bags.Mm-hmm.And...Oh, that's cool.It's nice that people there really don't try to understand like what they say.Yeah, some don't want to talk to me.Yeah.Yeah, I don't know.I wonder if they're like hoarding or... like some are selling for sure.But yeah, but some just don't want to talk about it.Mm.That's also interesting.Yeah, it's like a completely different sort of like... yeah, like what is...It's a very weird psychological relation to stuff.I guess so.

I guess so.Have you ever watched any of those TV shows about hoarders and stuff?No, I haven't.I read about it.So I have an article downloaded about that and...